CISO Talk EP 22 – Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in Security – TechStrong TV
Mitch Ashley: Hi and welcome to CISO Talk. My name is Mitch Ashley; I am CTO with Techstrong Group, as well as principal at Techstrong Research. I’m joined, today, by my cohast – cohost [laughter], Matt Newfield. It’s the end of year, I’ve never said that the whole year _____ _____ _____ _____ be doing this with you. [Laughs]
Matt Newfield: Great to be here again, Mitch, and I don’t mind being the cohast, too, [crosstalk]. [Laughter]
Mitch Ashley: Cohast – it’s a new word, it’s gonna be popular, next year, trust me. Okay, so our topic today is diversity, equity, and inclusion. Fantastic topic, I’m super excited, we’ve got some amazing guests, just people I love anyway. The topic is super fitting for what we’re doing today. So I’d like to have everybody introduce yourself. Nicole Dove, if you wanna tell us a little bit, who you are, where you work, what you do, that kind of thing?
Nicole Dove: Yeah, sure, Mitch. So, hello, everyone. I’m Nicole Dove. I’m a business information security officer at Warner Media, so I do all the things about cybersecurity. I’m also a visiting lecturer at Clark Atlanta University, and host of The Urban Girl Corporate World Podcast. Great to be here again with you fantastic people.
Mitch Ashley: Best voice for a podcast, I tell ya, every time [crosstalk] hear your podcast. And of course we have with us Wendy Reynolds-Dobbs. Wendy, welcome, tell us about yourself.
Wendy Dobbs: Yes, thank you so much. So, Wendy Reynolds-Dobbs; I lead diversity, equity, and inclusion at Unisys Corporation. Very excited to be here and join this conversation today.
Mitch Ashley: Fantastic. And I should’ve said our topic is diversity, equity, and inclusion in the context of security in the industry. Matt and I talk frequently about one of our roles, so the people that have been doing this for a while, is mentoring, helping, you know, move the industry along in different areas. And diversity, equity, and inclusion is a big problem, let’s be frank about it, a lot of work to do, a lot of progress that we can make. We can sort of get caught up in the “it’s systemic” and, yes, that’s part of it, but we can’t let this stop us from what we can do as individuals, as people working together, those kind of things. So we want to really explore this topic, today. I’m excited to learn a lot as well as participate; I know Matt is, too. Matt, you wanna just share a few thoughts to kind of kick off our conversation? And then we’ll get rolling, here.
Matt Newfield: Yeah, look, I’m very excited, as well. I think this is gonna be a great learning experience, and help either solidify thoughts that some of us have that are in the audience, and here doing this podcast, in our leadership styles, and areas that we should be changing and looking at. You know, we were doing a pre-brief around this, and, you know, I find it very interesting, ’cause words matter. And, you know, having the conversation here and being an active listener, even if you’re not engaged, actively listen to what is being said I think is gonna be very important. Because each of us are individuals and we have to make sure we understand that, understand other people’s points of views matter. And then, what we can be doing.
One of the interesting things that I’ve seen in DEI conversations is there’s a tendency to talk about either way far in the past or way far in the future. What are we gonna do today to fix something after most of us have retired? You know, what happened when we were children? And one of the things that we’re gonna try to talk about, today, is what are things that we should be doing today, right now? This doesn’t have to be a next-millennia or a pre-millennia conversation. Let’s talk about today, ’cause it matters to people today. So I agree with you, Mitch, I’m excited to be able to talk to Nicole and Wendy; they’re amazing people in this industry. They’re just amazing people in general, and are gonna bring a wealth of knowledge to this conversation.
Mitch Ashley: You know, just to start the conversation, I’m very curious, ’cause both Wendy and Nicole have a lot of experience in the topic of DEI. And I’m curious, how do you bring up this conversation? How do you have this conversation with friends, with peers? You know,
speaking as a white guy, I’m afraid of bringing it up the wrong way, you know, but I will, even if I, you know, do it in an awkward way. But how do you start that conversation? Wendy, do you wanna kick that off?
Wendy Dobbs: Sure. You know, the one thing about DEI that I find just really interesting, it’s very personal, right? And what I always share with people is that everyone is part of the discussion of DEI. Like, a lot of times, I hear, you know, people, like, “Oh, we have to hire a diverse candidate.” I’m, like, “Well, what does that mean? Because there’s a group of people that are diverse, right? So what are you saying? Do we need to hire women? Do you need to focus on this or that?” We’re all part of this word “diversity”: white men, black men, white women, black women, LGTBQ, we’re all part of it. And so, when you talk about how do you bring it up, you just do; it’s part of your daily conversation. And everything that we do, we’re making decisions, we’re interacting with people, most of the time, especially in the workplace, that are different from us.
So it naturally comes up in conversation, even when we were talking, you know, in our discussion, prior, it just comes up. And I think for people, you do have to get comfortable being uncomfortable, you have to be okay and feel comfortable challenging each other, as well. But I do wanna stress the fact that DEI is not for one population; it includes everyone. We’re all part of that fabric of DEI. But Nicole, I would love to get your perspective on it, as well.
Nicole Dove: I totally agree, Wendy. You know, it’s interesting, we talk about DEI, whether we know it or not, in every facet of the business, right? So when we begin to talk to it about people, it shouldn’t necessarily be that difficult. I do appreciate what you called out, Mitch right, like, “I don’t wanna bring it up in the wrong way.” But I think, you know, just like any other thing, we’ve gotta find our safe spaces, and sometimes you can just ask, like, “Hey, I wanna talk about this. How should I approach this topic? Are you comfortable about approaching this topic?” and let’s just have the conversation.
Matt Newfield: You know, one of the things, and I love what – if you see me looking down, _____ a lot of our CISO Talk episodes, I’m taking a lot of notes. So, when you say “ask” – and this goes back to Mitch’s question – you know, when I’m in a lot of situations, you know, we are taught, by legal, we’re taught by HR, to be very careful around these topics. They’ve been made sensitive, and we can make a billion excuses of why it’s made sensitive. I’ve heard craziness that it’s the media’s fault, or it’s our parents’ fault, or its HR’s fault, or, you know, it’s Mitch’s fault, I mean, I blame Mitch for a lot of things. [Laughter] [Crosstalk] I would love to explore a little more on, you know, in companies, and let’s not say corporations, but in the world of business, is there really a wrong way to bring this up? Without going to crazy – I mean, you could – yes, there are stupid ways to bring it up, but, you know, it’s a conversation I think is important at a leadership level, I think is important at an all-hands level within your group, I think it’s important when you’re talking out in public.
So, how should this be discussed so that it doesn’t come across as fake, forced, it doesn’t come across in the wrong way? You know, what are your all thoughts about? How do we do that? How do you get this moving?
Wendy Dobbs: Well, let me first talk a little bit about the sensitivity piece, right? It’s interesting, because I think the world is just changing. I mean, you know, everything changes, but I think the world is changing where, conversations that used to be very taboo, like, “Oh, don’t mention this, don’t mention that,” are coming into light, right? And organizations are trying to quickly react to that, right? But the one thing about it, it gives us an opportunity to talk about DEI more candidly, more transparently, where I believe probably even 10-20 years ago, we stayed away from a lot of topics. You know, I might not have talked about my experiences being a black woman, and now it’s, like, yeah, the door has opened to really talk about that.
So I think, you know, like I said, I think the world is changing where people are starting to be more transparent around conversations like this. And so, yes, still, there might be some touchy subjects here and there, but I think the door is open where you can ask questions, kind of like Nicole shared, and be able to have conversations in the workplace, that are around topics that we used to not talk about. But anyways, going back to your question, I think your question, Matt, was, like, how do you bring things up in an appropriate way? I think DEI shows up in so many ways when we think about the workplace. When we think about, you know, having conversations with our – you know, when we have talent discussions _____ _____ HR, you have talent discussions and you’re talking about, you know, evaluating talent, DEI comes up in that conversation.
It’s like, you know, if you’re in a performance conversation and someone says, “Well, I don’t like their style,” like, “Well, tell me more about that. What does that mean?” questioning that, you know, “Why are you sharing this?” So I think it comes up in our daily discussions that we have with our teams, I think it comes up in some of our processes where you can easily bring DEI into the conversation. I think as leaders, when you’re having townhalls or you’re talking to your team, you can bring DEI into that discussion, “What are we doing in our organization around DEI? What are some of the things that I believe in around DEI?” So I think there’s always natural ways in the workplace to bring it up, and then even, you know, personally, when talking to your teams, asking questions like, you know, just in your daily kind of conversations with your teams, it’s gonna come up.
I think where, for leaders, I think a lot of times they’re apprehensive, sometimes, to not rub people the wrong way, but I think if people understand your intent, and know that you’re not perfect and you’re not always gonna say or do the right thing, that’s okay, too, and to acknowledge that. But Nicole, what’s your thoughts on that?
Nicole Dove: Yeah, so this was interesting, and I appreciate, Matt, that we wanted to dig a level deeper on this. I remember when I moved to Romania for a while, so now I’m on the opposite end of the coin, right, and now I’m the outsider and I’m trying to engage this very, very new cultural dynamic and environment. And I’m not necessarily certain how to process things, because I am not back at home. And so, one of the things that I did was I found my person, right, that I could ask questions and that – so, they may not come out right, I may be offended by some things, I may not have that understanding, they can provide that for me. So there are a couple things, a couple key points on that.
The first is self-awareness, right? And then, how that trickles down into understanding that I may have my own unconscious biases. And then, self-education. So before I engage with somebody from that community, I come in knowing a little something, and I think that’s how we begin to have conversations around D, E, and I. Even if there’s something that I wanna ask someone from a different group, why am I curious about that? Exploring my own curiosity, right, and maybe pressure testing that somewhere else. But I really think self-education, self-awareness, and realizing our own biases go a long way and help facilitate having those exchanges.
Wendy Dobbs: You bring up a great point, too, Nicole, because I always stress that, as well, self-awareness, number one. And I think for me personally, and maybe, I mean, yes, I’m a DEI leader, so people feel very comfortable asking me all kind of questions around DEI [laughs], and I’m, like, “Of course.” But you gotta be willing to open just a little bit. So when we think about, you now, and we talk about this with DEI and DEI education, and DEI education is great to start that self-awareness journey, right? It’s not the end all, be all, but it definitely starts opening your eyes and kind of going down the path of exploring and learning. And the one thing that I always share with people is that it is a very personal journey, right?
When we think about DEI, you might be challenging how you grew up, your experiences, what you were taught, and it could turn your whole life around, right? So it’s very personal. It’s not like teaching someone how to use Excel and go back on your computer and do it; it is very personal. And a lot of times you go through this process and you’re, like, “Oh, my gosh, what I was taught was wrong,” or, you know, “What I felt, before, was wrong.” I used to be – you talked about being a professor, I used to teach, as well, and I remember I was in a class and I had a student from another country, and she was, like, “I was so nervous about being around African American people, from what I grew up knowing, you know, in imagery.”
And she was, like, “And then I came here and meeting, you know, folks that were different from me, I felt very comfortable. I started to change my thought process.” And so, with DEI, I think the one thing, self-awareness is important, but being able to open up just a little bit with people, because that gives them the invitation to open up to you. and so, when you’re able to do that and really start to build relationships in that way, you can have more authentic conversations. People will give you a little bit more forgiveness when you say something that’s a little bit off-putting [laughs] and – but I think that’s a big thing is you gotta be willing to share just a little bit about yourself, to allow people to do the same.
Matt Newfield: [Crosstalk], real quick, if you come at it from a, “I’m not telling you something. I’m asking you something.” “Hey, I’m thinking this. Am I off basis? Am I wrong?” and accepting that criticism. Mitch, go ahead.
Mitch Ashley: No, I was just gonna offer, one of my many family members, one of my family members, falls into a diverse category, and in talking with her about it, one of the things that I didn’t know I was saying something wise or important, but [laughs] – and I said to her, I said, “You know, a) I know that I will never have the same experiences. It’s impossible for me to, whether it’s _____ just history background or just not in that place where I could.” So, knowing that I really truly can’t experience it, the approach that I take is, I really, I’m having this conversation. So you talked about education, learning about, you know, DEI as a topic, but I think the conversation is the learning part of it, too.
And if you’re approaching this as, “Well, let me tell you what I think about the topic,” that’s a whole different approach than, “Let’s talk about it, because, you know, I have some things that I know, maybe a lot that I don’t know, and there’s terms that I maybe haven’t used before, or that are being used in a different way.” ‘Cause I know people that are coming through school and college now, you know, women’s studies and diversity and all, those are topics that are being taught, skills that are being taught, and they’re using words in new and different – same words in different ways. So I have to say, “Well, what do you mean by that? ‘Cause that meant this when I was growing up or as I understand it.” So, but you also have to self-challenge and just assume – don’t assume I know what I’m talking about. I think I know some things, but I’m willing to understand that it’s different than I think.
Matt Newfield: Well, you both said something that I want to explore a little more, and it kind of blew my mind a little bit, in a good way. We always talk about mentors, and, you know, I’m a big fan of getting mentors. And when we talk about mentors, in a lot of ways, in business, it’s about your career. It’s growing your career, you know, you get a technical mentor, you know, get someone in the cyber field if you’re in the cyber field, maybe you get somebody that’s not in your field, to help you learn diversity as in finance, if you’re a cyber person. But you both have touched on finding someone that you can build a relationship as, like, a mentor. And I wanna make sure I’m hearing this right, to help – educate may be the wrong word, it may be the right word, but help me on my journey to understand DEI better.
And make sure that, you know, I’ve encompassed that in my organization, my life, my career. Because, to Mitch’s point, I can’t experience what you experience, and you can’t experience what I experience, and that requires a conversation. And you both said it in a safe way where you know a little about me, so if I say something that, you know, in my head is not derogatory in any way, but you’re, like, “Okay, look, when you say you don’t care, and there’s a joke behind that to the audience, I know you don’t mean that the way you’re taking it.” And I could go, “Whoa, yeah, I’m never gonna say that again.” So, I would love to hear your thoughts on the mentoring aspect of that.
Nicole Dove: Yeah, there are a couple layers I wanna touch on there, and I don’t wanna get us off track with that, but I think we all have something that we can learn from somebody else, right? Whether it’s what to do, and sometimes it is very much what not to do. And I think there is a lot of learning even as you begin to explore who these trusted advisors are, right? Because even their advice is a downstream product of their own experiences, so if there’s somebody who’s very bitter or very jaded, or who has come through an industry that wasn’t very welcoming or very pleasant, their perspective is gonna be very, very different than somebody who had a different shift of experience, right? Like, the advice that I probably give people now is very different than the advice that I gave maybe 10 or 15 years ago, you know, earlier on in my career.
There’s another aspect of mentorship I wanna touch on, but it’s very much linked to increasing representation in organizations. And that may be a little later in the conversation, so I’m gonna point to Wendy for her comments, before I take this totally off the rails. [Laughter]
Wendy Dobbs: No, it’s good. Yes, so I am a firm believer in mentors. I was just having a conversation, yesterday, with folks about that. And you do have mentoring for all different aspects of your career, right? I have mentors that are DEI leaders in other organizations, I have mentors that are HR leaders in other organizations, I have mentors within our own organization, from different areas of, you know, the business. And then I have personal mentors, right, they’re different, culturally, from me, they might be friends, they might be some of the same people that I’m mentioning. And so, I think as you build relationships, it could be with people that are, you know, on your teams or your peers or outside of your company, they can serve multiple purposes.
There’s people I have pressure test things with all the time, or they’ll call me and be, like, “Mm, am I thinking about this wrong? Am I approaching this in a different way? Do you see it in a different way?” And so, I think as you build relationships with people naturally, those conversations can take place.
Matt Newfield: Well, and they should take place, right? And it’s interesting because, for me, with my mentors, I always pressure test, and I’ve got a very diverse slate of mentors. They rank from all sorts of industries, all sorts of backgrounds, you know, for me, it’s a very diverse slate, but I never really thought about it from a DEI perspective. It was, I think, inherently there, because one of my mentors is a female executive, and when I’m approaching things, she’s giving me her point of view. But I’ve never approached her specifically about women in the workplace, for example. That kind of conversation I have – I had dinner, the other night, with one of my mentors, an African American executive. I never approached the conversation on that specific part of it.
Which I am going to start doing. I’m actually going to meet with them to say I wanna have conversations around this specific part instead of it always being around technology, leadership, those typical things. That’s why I thought it was so interesting the way you said that, because even for myself, I just never thought about it that way.
Nicole Dove: Yeah, which I think is a great thing, too, right? And I also love that the foundation of those relationships are not race, right, because I think something that happens is, like, we build this inventory of contacts, right, because of different contacts, but they are not intentional connections. And I also believe that, because of the foundation of the relationship that you have, I think they will be very excited to hear that you wanna have a conversation about those experiences, and you’re not somebody new. There is trust, there, so you can have a very different conversation than somebody maybe you just met at a conference, last week.
Matt Newfield: Well, and it’s also, I would think, not insulting. ‘Cause I would actually, let’s flip it around, if someone said, “Hey, Matt, I want you to be my mentor because you’re a white guy,” I’d be, like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? That’s a little weird. I’m not interested in that, you know, go away.” So I would assume that if I, or anybody, asked someone to be a mentor, if I called you, Nicole, and said, “Hey, I need you to be my mentor,” and you were, like, “Oh, this is really exciting. Why?” and I’m, like, “Oh, because you’re a black woman,” [crosstalk] go, “Hey – ” click, right? [Crosstalk]
Nicole Dove: Well, you know what, I’m gonna challenge that, Matt, because we have, typically, and it’s scientifically proven, we gravitate towards people who physically look like us, right? So, I may only have a group of mentors who are all black women. Well, guess what, the places I wanna go are not occupied by all black women, so I may call you and say, “Matt, I need you to talk me through something, because all I’m doing is talking to these black women all day.” I need to get the perspective of a white guy, right, because it’s gonna be very – it may be very, very singular, sometimes, in perspective. But to your point, even to challenge my own thoughts, it’s gotta be a little bit more than that.
Wendy Dobbs: Well, and I think what both of you are bringing up the point, which I share with people all the time, around, you know, people are, like, “Oh, what can I do to kind of grow in this DEI space, personally?” or whatever. You gotta have diversity around you, right? And when you think about your mentors, you need to think about that. I have mentors that are different ages. I have folks that are in my life that are younger. I have folks that are older. I’ve got folks that have grown up in other countries. I have folks that are rural. I have folks from all areas, right? Because your conversations, as you’re building relationships with people, do get personal, they should, to some level, right?
So when you, you know, like you said, Matt, you have a diverse slate of mentors, that’s important, when you’re thinking about mentorship, right, and building relationships with people, you’ve gotta do that. Because for most of us – and I think the world is changing, I really, really do, so I try to get myself out of my own mind. But for most of us, you know, we grew up in communities with people that look like us, we worshipped in places, if we worship, with people who look like us, we went to schools with people who look like us, we self-selected friends with people who look like us. Then we get to the workplace and we’re forced to work with people different from us, and that’s where the confusion lies. And there’s no way around it in the workplace, right?
And so, in our lives we self-select and continue to do that, “I don’t wanna live in this neighborhood. I wanna live in that neighborhood.” Well, why do you wanna live in that neighborhood? Why?” You know, I mean, it’s interesting, I grew up in inner-city Los Angeles, and I went to school outside of my area, with people who never have seen the other side of LA. Never have they ever. Why? Never they have to, right? So, you know, when we think about the way we’ve grown up, a lot of times, we’ve self-selected, and so, by opening your opportunity to meet people who are different than yourself is very important.
Mitch Ashley: Nicole, were you gonna take us off the rails _____, or did you start to go down that path? [Laughter] I’m wondering [crosstalk].
Nicole Dove: I sure was, yeah.
Mitch Ashley: [Crosstalk] where we’re going next. So I’m on the ride with you and you’re driving the bus, so you let me know where we’re going. [Laughs]
Nicole Dove: So let me know if we wanna jump, here, but I thought mentorship was such an important part of the conversation, because when we talk about solutioning for D, E, and I, and getting people – obviously, insecurity is something that is prevalent that we need to shift, right? We talk about, “Oh, mentors, mentors, mentors.” It’s not just mentorship. Like, that’s a great part of it, but it’s gotta go beyond. I read something, I don’t know if it was data-backed or not, but it really struck a nerve with me. And what it said was that black people are the most over-mentored and under-sponsored. Have you seen this, as well, Wendy?
Wendy Dobbs: [Laughs] [Crosstalk] I have, I have.
Nicole Dove: Yeah, and I think it is true. So, I don’t know if we’re there at the point where we wanna talk solutioning, but I think –
Mitch Ashley: [Crosstalk] you are, because here’s – I just wanna jump in, ’cause the question I was gonna ask us next is, how do we help people who are growing and emerging as leaders, that, you know, come from a diverse background, what do we do more than just mentors, people that are reporting us? And now you’re bringing up sponsors, so there’s other ways of doing it, too. So, how do we help pay it forward, for someone – you know, you all have advanced in your careers, you know, if you had sponsors, people that have done things that really helped you. [Crosstalk] what can we learn from that?
Matt Newfield: [Crosstalk]
Nicole Dove: Yeah, let’s get down to the meat, right?
Mitch Ashley: This is real stuff, right?
Nicole Dove: So, I think that organizations are starting to have – well, when I started my career, we were not having the conversation, at all. It was not happening, and it was very taboo to have the conversation. And sometimes when we tried, I think we would be penalized, unfairly, for having the conversation. I think we were just in the space where we were not ready to recognize the reality of where we were. To Wendy’s point, things have shifted significantly, right? Now we’re having the conversation. But I think sometimes we just have one layer of the conversation, and it’s very much where you may see an organization say, “Diversity is important to us, we have a goal for diversity, here are our numbers,” but that is just, like, so bottom-of-the-barrel, right? Because, sure, you may recruit, right, you may staff these positions, but what is the experience of those people once they come into the walls of your organization, right?
How do we, you know, reconcile unconscious bias to performance evaluations, right? That is a very, very prevalent problem. How do we think about pay and equity, right? Now, that becomes a downstream impact of experience, performance, and now we’re talking about pay. And I think until people stop talking and create a space, a safe space, for people of color to share their experience and share the challenges, and people listen, we’ve gotta go from no conversation, you know, singular-layer conversation to honest conversation and courageous conversation. Because if they don’t have that feedback, they – how can you solve a problem that you don’t now that you have?
And I also think even at the beginning, the pipeline piece, and it’s a problem. One last point I will make: a lot of opportunities I’ve had in my career, and probably many of you, have really been because of relationships that I’ve had with people, right? And so, if we, as organizations, are not going out and building genuine intentional relationships with organizations that create communities for the people that we want to hire and bring in, we are not gonna see a shift. And I think right now, because there is such a vast shortage of talent in the cybersecurity industry, it is the perfect time to level up your diversity, equity, and inclusion, and the complementary talent acquisition strategy.
Wendy Dobbs: [Crosstalk] I’m, like, “You said a lot in there,” I’m, like, “What do I wanna [crosstalk]?” So many things. Let me go back to a couple things, and I couldn’t agree with you more on your comments earlier. When it comes to mentoring, just thinking about that, mentoring is very important, right? And we talked a little bit about sponsorship, and we can use that wording, too, ’cause it is different than mentoring – I’m not gonna go through all those definitions. I think the important thing, when we think about our internal talent, is, when we think about supporting our internal talent, especially those that are from underrepresented groups, is advocating. When there is a great talent, you have to advocate.
And what does advocate look like? Advocate might be spending a little bit more time with that talent. Advocating, you might see something in that talent, maybe they don’t have all the skillset you need, right, but they have the core competencies to do the job. So that means they need a little bit more development in xyz area, that means they might need an extra one-on-one with you, or more time with you. That means that, when you’re in that talent discussion, you’re bringing that person up and giving them the assignments to give them visibility to other leaders in the organization. That means you might put an opportunistic hire on that person, right?
Now, that doesn’t mean that you’re picking unqualified people to do a job, okay? [Laughs] Like, that’s always the thing, like, “Well, you’re just telling me to, you know, develop this person, that person – ” No, this is someone who is a talent for the organization, okay, and deserves a chance. It kind of goes back to this equity piece, ’cause people always talk about equity, which is very important, don’t get me wrong. And although the outcome of equity is similar to equality, the approach to get there is not the same. And so, because we know people have different backgrounds and different experiences and come to the door with just a different view, we might have to treat them a little bit differently, to make sure there’s a fairness in how they progress within the organization.
So, advocating is so important for your internal talent. And when it comes to external talent, I think Nicole touched – I’m not gonna speak on it, because Nicole touched on a lot of the aspects that we should do externally for talent to come in. And then, lastly, that I’ll just double down with Nicole is creating a culture that really embraces everyone, right? And thinking about the experience of your employees within the organization. You can’t just bring them in and say, “Good luck;” there has to be an experience that really helps them to foster that diversity and inclusion.
Nicole Dove: Imagine if those were the metrics that we show for D, E, and I, not how many people are in different positions by diverse, you know, at whatever level, but the sentiment of employees who are diverse at every level. It would significantly change the conversation.
Matt Newfield: I love that idea, and I love everything you all are saying and I couldn’t agree more. I think a lot of people use “advocate,” “mentoring,” and “sponsoring” interchangeably, when they actually mean so – they’re so different in what they mean. And I think, you know, as we are here doing CISO Talks to help people, you know, a couple of other things that you said, but we sort of rushed through because of time, is you have to think different about who you’re bringing in. The field of cybersecurity, for example, we wanna help make it more diverse across the spectrum, so you have to look in different places. You bring up LinkedIn: you can’t go to the same old places and expect different outcomes.
And finding different places and changing your mindset on what qualifies someone, I think, is important. You know, we are always looking for that perfect candidate; you want that person, on paper, that everything checks and you’re, like, “Wow, you are not a diamond in the rough. I found a diamond for a nickel. This is the greatest thing ever.” And I think we all have to stop that. I know me personally, I’m very lucky, because, Wendy, you work at Unisys: I have someone at Unisys that I can go to that helps us as a corporation, helps me as a person, as a leader, and helps my team. And, you know, for a lot of our audience, in your organization, do you have someone in your group, in your sphere of influence, in your leadership _____ that can do that for you?
And if you don’t, what can you do to change that? That is a very important thing, and one that we saw that we did not have and we found, and we were very lucky to find.
Mitch Ashley: We’re at the end of our time, and we could go ten hours. [Laughs] I’m sure we could – I certainly could, and I had a bunch more questions, so we need to continue this conversation. Maybe we just take one thought from each person, what’s a takeaway from this? If you took one thing away from this conversation, what might it be or what was it for you? Matt, I’m gonna ask you to start, ’cause you were taking a bunch of notes. [Laughs]
Matt Newfield: [Crosstalk] I took a bunch of notes. I think for me, one of the biggest things I took out is how to differentiate the mentorships that I have, really look at people I mentor, am I sponsoring them in the correct way, am I advocating for them, or am I just giving them advice, right? “Hey, you should go do this,” instead of me being out there with them is a big change for me, and as I said in this, I’m actually going to call my mentors and I wanna change that conversation. And I’m gonna call Nicole, too, and tell her, “You’re going to help me. Please? Please?”
Nicole Dove: [Laughs] Let’s do it, Matt.
Matt Newfield: Right? But having those conversations and feeling a bit more comfortable that I can have those conversations is something I’m gonna focus on.
Mitch Ashley: Great. Nicole, you were referenced, so you [crosstalk] accept the invitation, so.
Nicole Dove: [Laughs] Yeah, absolutely, any time for Matt. And one thing I wanna say is I wanna encourage leaders of organizations, before you push metrics and data about diversity, I would ask that you pull it first, right? I would say find a way to create a safe space where your employees can share information about their experiences, where they can talk about belonging, right? Before you push the data or metrics, pull data about pay equity across, you know, different levels in the organization. And then, have not only just honest conversations but courageous conversations that don’t just focus on concepts, but challenge yourself to create solutions. And don’t be afraid to fail. That’s where all the juice is.
Wendy Dobbs: I love that. And I would say, just to add to it, two things, I do feel, and I shared this before, just getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Really, whenever you’re challenging kind of your beliefs and your thought process, that’s an uncomfortable space to be in, and that’s a lot of times why we shy away from conversations. Or we hear someone say something and we don’t wanna, you know, like, oh, we don’t wanna say something. Or we hear someone say something about talent and we don’t wanna challenge them. Get comfortable being uncomfortable. And also, what Nicole shared earlier: really continue self-awareness. It’s so important, to help you as you continue to grow in this space, as well.
Mitch Ashley: Well, I had a lot of ahas; I could create a long list. I think one of them was, thinking about mentoring as sharing what you know, and sponsoring as helping somebody. You know, we’re helping somebody with what we know, but helping them in the movement, the advancement, or whatever it might be. So, that’s sort of a different frame of reference, and that, craving the conversation, even if it’s awkward, you know, ask for forgiveness, right? [Laughs] ‘Cause I’m gonna make mistakes, it’s okay; let’s learn together. And we’re gonna sponsor help each other have this conversation, too. [Laughs]
So, what a great conversation, great way to finish our week when we’re recording this. So, I wanna thank Nicole Dove and thank Wendy Reynolds-Dobbs and, of course, my cohost and friend, Matt Newfield. All of you are special people, and thank you for creating this space with us, have this conversation.
Wendy Dobbs: Thank you.
Nicole Dove: Thank you so much for using your platform for this very important conversation.
Wendy Dobbs: Yes, yes.
Matt Newfield: [Crosstalk], by the way, I have a stack of notes, and we have at least a dozen more episodes that – so we will get back with you and do this again. And really, really appreciate your time.
Wendy Dobbs: Wonderful. Thank you.
Mitch Ashley: Fantastic. Be well, everyone.
Nicole Dove: Bye.
[End of Audio]
